Ep 10: Nat Kilsby

Simon Blake OBE returns for a second series of Just About Coping.

This series we're looking look at a new campaign by MHFA England; My Whole Self. To create mentally healthy workplaces, people need to feel safe to be their ‘whole self’ at work. So how can we create workforces, wherever that may be, where everyone has the freedom to do this? To find out, Simon has gathered leaders from across the worlds of business, sport, and more...

Today we hear from Nat Kilsby, a Managing Director at Goldman Sachs with years of experience in financial engineering and technology. Nat is also gender-fluid, meaning sometimes they present male and sometimes they present female. After hearing Nat's moving story at our My Whole Self event at the House of Lords back in February, we had to get them on the podcast to hear more.

Simon and Nat chatted about;

• Complex gender identity and the relationship with wellbeing
• Feelings, and learning that they are not good or bad, they just are
• Treating life as an experiment and how Nat helps empower people at work by embracing fluidity 
• The importance of pronouns and why Nat uses they, them and theirs

Nat embodies the essence of bringing your whole self to work and it was fascinating to hear how intrinsically their identity, performance at work, and happiness were linked.

As always, we'd love to know what you think. If you could take a moment to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts we would very much appreciate your feedback. You can do this on most platforms including:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify
• Google Podcasts
• Stitcher
• TuneIn

Don't forget to get involved on social media using #JACPodcast and check out all the My Whole Self fun on our website.

More on Nat: goldmansachs.com/careers/blog/posts/letter-to-my-younger-self-nat-kilsby

More on Simon: twitter.com/Simonablake
Simon Blake OBE is the Chief Executive of Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) England. His mission is to improve the mental health of the nation and help build an inclusive and  society where attitudes and behaviours around mental health are normalised. Simon received an OBE in 2011, is Deputy Chair at Stonewall, and enjoys running, equestrian eventing, and walks with his dog.

More on #JACPodcast:
MHFA England: mhfaengland.org
Email: media@mhfaengland.org

More on #MyWholeSelf: mhfaengland.org/my-whole-self/

Transcript

spk_1:   0:04
I'm Summer Blake, and this is just about coping. Our second guest in this Siri's is not kills me that identifies his gender fluid. In this episode, they described what being gender fluid means. The relationship between their mental health on their gender identity, ways to talk about the importance of getting pronouns right on. Why not uses they? There's it was a real pleasure speaking to Nat, and I think they expressed really, really clearly why it's so important. You can take your whole self to work in way. It's good for individuals, good for business and makes a real difference to performance, to satisfaction on leadership. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Do not thank you very much for Welcome us Teo your offices at government sex. Could you just start off by telling us five words or phrases which describe you five

spk_0:   0:58
words without overthinking them? My dad, important to me loving change magic on DH Drive

spk_1:   1:09
got start with asking a bit about magic. It's a

spk_0:   1:12
magic. I think life needs to be a little bit about magic. Sometimes on DH. Certainly my life is crazy in some regards what magic and others. But it was a really a really magic link in the past, sort of 10 to 15 years. It's something I've done as a part time hobby. Joined one period of gardening leave between two jobs. I decided I wanted to teach myself magic. I found a really good mentor. Was a great competition on DH. So began a passion, which is something I like to do at parties and sometimes weave into my corporate life as well. Wow,

spk_1:   1:45
that's wasn't the answer that I was expecting. So my mom told us that people make the magic. So there's always an interesting woman. People actually do do magic. You could tell us a little bit about your work, a CZ well here. Just because I think it's interesting that somebody who's a scientific is also into magic.

spk_0:   2:05
Sure, so my job here at Goldman my my background. Professionally, it has always been a software engineer on DH over my experience really gravitated towards electronic trading and systematic trading. That's what I've done for most of my career. But more recently I've started to apply those same techniques into the middle and back office of firms like Goldman and others where there's a lot of manual work that's happening. And you can apply similar techniques in systematic trading to the way that we booked trades and run on middle office.

spk_1:   2:38
Fantastic. Thank you. S Oh, yeah, the magic and the day job. Definitely interesting bed partners. Could you just talk to us a little bit about your gender identity way? You have been privileged, Teo, have you speak a House of Lords event and where you talked openly about your gender identity. So just tell us about that.

spk_0:   2:59
Sure. So identifies gender fluid. Which means that on a given day I decide to present male or female on its being, you know, a journey to arrive at this place. You know, when I was young age of eight through to my late teens, it was something that I used to think about on DH was confusing, you know, having these feelings about a drawer to the other gender or not being able to explain why it wasn't something I told anyone back then. It was a different time in place. Back then. Transgender wasn't really something that was talked about. Wasn't really known on DH me. I kept within myself. I did tell some people. When I got into my late teens, it wasn't the most positive experience again, different time and place. And therefore it was something that I consciously are now in reflection, unconsciously buried for the, you know, the next 2025 years. And it was three years ago when these feelings returned on DH. I went through a period where I reflected that emotionally. I was very grey, disconnected, very good at my job on had some crazy hobbies. I was always busy, couldn't relax, always doing something. But something was missing. And so I went to get some help at the recommendation of some friends. Just what you understand. Why don't I feel things anymore? On DIT was into that process on my first time in psychotherapy, when I started to remember these feelings, remember the memories but also remember the feelings and two things happened. I had a return of emotion, which was quite powerful and positive, but also a return of a very deep longing for a female life. But I couldn't explain very overpowering I. The way I describe you when I talk now is it's like a spring if you have it coiled and compressed for 25 years and you let go. It's gonna be pretty much out of control for a little while on that's what it was like in the early days. Gender dysphoria can be very overpowering and very consuming. But over the 33 and 1/2 years I've done a lot of work on myself in various ways to really understand those feelings. I'm really come to realisation that they are feelings, feelings not right or wrong. The oddest feelings on you need to learn to live within them. And what that means for me is you know, I have these feelings I can't control, and I like to express them in certain ways. And so I've learned to be able to express female in the world to be able to live a few my life when I want to build social network around me. That accommodates that but also practically make that work in terms of all the other facets of my life, many of which bring me joy alongside on so really arrived now, in a place where I feel really comfortable that I've created an identity that is complex but works for me on DH It works for me in a way that it allows me to live the life I want to lead on, feel very fulfilled with that.

spk_1:   5:49
And you described it as complex, just a moment to go. And I think the bit which you said in those feelings, No, right or wrong, they just our feelings. You've also have heard you describe it as being a living experiment. Could you just say a bit about Yeah, that's sort of sense off your gender as a as a as a and feelings about your gender as an experiment. Sure, I was really struck by it

spk_0:   6:14
when, Yeah, I mean, it's one of things I reflect on because as far as work goes on, you know a lot of my life in general. I'm a scientist and I'm logical. I like to plan things. I don't like things that are too risky. I like to understand what I'm going into, but when it comes to feelings and emotion, you can't do that. I don't know what I want. It's like a very poor the first time. My initial asking my psychotherapist was You have 10 weeks, Please fix me on DH, she explained. doesn't really work that way. Um, you you you can't treat it like project feelings. You have to feel you have to experience on DH. I've learned to realise that I have to immerse myself in my feelings. I have to try things to see how they feel. I then react to those on decide what I will do with, um you do you have a choice of what you do with your feelings on how you act upon them. But to get there very much is an experiment. And I feel like I've been doing an emotional experiment for the last few years. Of course, involves others around me as well, trying to navigate that landscape so that everyone comes along the journey with me. But I do feel that by doing that experimentation and by being in an environment both with my friends, family on good work, being able to experiment is the only way that I could arrive in a place where I feel comfortable because I've been able to actually experience things, gather data and figure out what works

spk_1:   7:35
for me. And that's a really interesting point, isn't it about you just described your friends, your family and your workplace. And of course, part of this My whole self campaign is about how do we bring our whole cells into into work? And do you feel, I guess, that you are as you're navigating, that you're taking your whole self into those different areas? And if you could, you talk to us a little bit about taking a whole self to work with this identity, which you've described as complex

spk_0:   8:05
taking your whole self toe work. I reflect its taking yourself in wherever you are at the time. You know when you want an emotional journey on DH. I like to compare my journey to emotional journeys more broadly rather than, you know, box it into a gender identity journey. And I found out I'd been experimenting. Is my reality changes when the feelings first came back and I have to deal with them some points? I was convinced on transition, and that changed on DH. What I have been able to do that in the workplace, to your question, is be able to over time become comfortable that even though I may not exactly know who I am, because I'm on a journey to figure that out, but I can bring that uncertainty. I can bring that emotional state into the workplace, be comfortable and experimenting with who I want to be. You know, it's a fact that I spend most of my time at work, you know, And so it's important to me that I can experiment with my emotional self in the workplace and feel comfortable, feel accepted, feel that it's okay to be on that experiment on also, you know, feel that it's OK to not be okay. Sometimes you know, I've been successful at Golden so far, and I'm enjoying it here. But they're certainly mean days when the biggest thing in my mind has bean my personal journey on being in a state where people come around. You can be comfortable with that. I think it's super important

spk_1:   9:28
being on that personal journey on DH. Being able to recognise that that goes hand in hand with the workplace. How does that impact on your performance, your ability to innovate your relationships with people at work?

spk_0:   9:43
I find them transformational now arrived in this place of fulfilment the beginning of 2019. I took the decision based off, you know the feelings at the time. This wasn't the journey I wanted to follow anymore. And I would present Male. I would stop stop this side of myself expressing myself female on DH when I took that decision, which is multifaceted involves my family, my Children, my work at the time. In that moment, it felt the right one. I had a sense of relief. I don't need to spend an hour getting ready anymore in the morning. I don't need to worry about being different, which is on my mind. So I had this wave of relief. But over the months that followed, um, I noticed two things. First off my emotions, my passion started to dwindle again, and I liken it to turning Grey from being colourful before on DH. Secondly, my stress levels went through the roof and I convinced myself for a while that I was just stressed and nothing related to this journey when I actually got some help with stress, which Goldman were very helpful with as well. And I think it's an important part of workplace support. I was able to then re engage with these feelings that are feelings that don't go away acknowledge them, Don't be scared of them. And when I re engage with them and accepted that this is part of me. My emotions returned on my stress levels went back to zero again. And I do find that my ability to network my ability to interact with people, my ability to dream, my ability to sort of think big. Some of things I'm doing here, work wise, are quite grand and quite bold. They all get super charged because something inside me which I'm feeding off its it's an energy that part of my identity. And when it's not suppressed, it helps me. Lots of other things

spk_1:   11:27
on DH In that month, when you were feeling grey feeling super stressed, would your work colleagues have noticed on understood?

spk_0:   11:38
I'm sure I'm sure they would have done. I mean, we've recently launched a hero Goldman, a mental health first ADA programme which is specifically targeted at things like that. But you know, I did. I didn't have any comments from from colleagues at work, but I did reach out to my boss. He was very helpful. I reached out to our support networks were then able to put me in touch with the right support. So then guide me back to realising that these feelings is something I need to connect

spk_1:   12:03
with you on DH. If you were also to think about different facets of your identity, how does that interplay with different ways that you do things at work, talked about you sometimes about presenting as male, sometimes presenting his female both how you present or thinking your work or how people relate to you? Is there any so incited? Understand

spk_0:   12:28
Italy? Yeah. I mean, I think certainly in my the initial part of my journey when I was experimenting and, you know, it first started presenting for you my network. I was very conscious of gender bias on DH unconscious bias. And there were some things that I observed, but, you know, representing female Do I feel like I could be heard in the same way? Um, do you know why my reacted to differently? And I couldn't put my finger on whether it's just my perception or whether it's unconscious bias from the people. Um, but it was never nevertheless a fascinating journey to sort of be in a position where some days I can present male sometimes I can present female. I think these days now I've unifying identity into you're headed entity that is mine as she don't feel different depending on how represents, I just maybe feel different about myself. You know, I'm proud of how we look and how I behave and how I can interact with the world, regardless of which gender I'm presenting in on. That's important to me. So I do feel these days that just the journey I'm on the abilities to have freedom, to express myself in the way I want to just give me a lot more confidence on DH makes me

spk_1:   13:40
happy. And how does that happiness translate into performance? How does that happiness translate into innovation? You've talked about moments where is suppressed feelings, and it impacted on work negatively. And I think that we're all perhaps a bit more familiar with how things impact negatively, perhaps less able. Tto talk about how it impacts positively. And given that I'm set with a scientist who likes crunchy terms get, is there any any suits of sense from your journey that you can

spk_0:   14:15
do that? I mean, in my mind, there was a really commercial value in encouraging people to be their true Selves at work and bring their whole Selves to work. I found my mental blocks removed. I find any any blocks in terms of innovation removed. My ideas are flowing more freely. I have more. Energy is it's like having an energy source that I can tap into. You know, my mo Jo just goes through the roof, whereas before it might be contained. I just feel like the now are no boundaries. And I have a saying that I joke about with a team that you know when we have hard things to do. I'll say to them, Well, you know, if I could do this, we can do anything right on DH It becomes a little mantra to myself. But if I can be who I want to be, even if it's non conformist, even if it's unusual compared to the norm, right then you can do anything. Onda work problems become easier. Yeah, and so it really gives me a fire that I draw on. It's infectious. It rubs off on my team. We have a very energised team on the level of transparency, transparent, inclusive leadership. When you are your whole self comes naturally on DH that also pervade into the team a very loyal and open team who get behind your vision because they see truth and transparency,

spk_1:   15:31
which is incredibly powerful. And I was going to say so it sounds that there are two bits. One is your own energy, but also your power and ability to energise your team. Goldman Sachs, as a employer is obviously embraced this journey with you. Can you just talk about how that has happened?

spk_0:   15:50
I'm gonna look a position that I'm a senior high here. Senior MD on what Goldman have bean great and amazing out is just providing as much support as possible, but also following my lead in terms of what I asked for. They're not had anyone like myself who wanted to sort of lower the gender boundary. And so everything I've asked for, they just put resources and help behind making happen. So some examples, You know, when I first joined, I had the unusual challenge of Will Have one security badge on is printed in my mail. I chose Nats as a jewel gender name. I have one photo, and so you know, we talked about options and ideas, but very quickly was able to give me a dual sided pass when they had to jump through hoops and get security clearance and be nimble about trying to create. But we made happen on DH Pronounce Initiative is another example that you know, has been driven centrally. But I've been part of being able to help with so lots of support, lots of direct support from peers on from my team. You know, I just found it a very supportive environment. I think you know, diversity is very important to Goldman, but it's nice to see it being done practically in my situation and just getting support.

spk_1:   17:03
Yeah, and sounds like two things. That one is where there's a will. There's a way you security passes may not be the first thing that people thought about that actually present a very rial issue on DH. There is a solution if people want Teo find solutions, but the other that's really striking, that is, it's not a let's just ignore it. It's a an active conversation that you're having.

spk_0:   17:28
I think also I just find it very supportive place. I think back to earlier discussion does it be able to experiment? I've not felt any pressure either way on DH. There is of the times I've stepped back of the times. We have ploughed ahead in terms of how what I want to do with this journey. I found that those around me, my peers, people I work for the comedy either way. Yeah, I think that's what's needed. Yeah, I mean, I didn't feel any pressure. I don't feel any pressure to be a trail blazer on example. I just fit in and follow my lead. Yeah, I think is very important when you're on an emotional journey.

spk_1:   18:02
Absolutely. So if you were to give some advice for other businesses for people you're working people departments or senior managers that might be listening to this and trying to think actually, then what should we be doing? If you had some some hot tips from your experience about things that have really been of benefit, what would they be?

spk_0:   18:22
I think my biggest advice with gender journey is that China's transgender and gender expression is a spectrum right on DH. I find it helpful, or did you talk to the people and encourage the people to view this journey is just another journey of human emotion. Human expression. Onda journey took to fulfilment. And I think if you can normalise the journey perhaps away from the polar debate that sometimes happens, it becomes easier to understand on support people on a journey to just be themselves. And obviously that's wider than just gender. Yeah, I think one thing that I campaign for involved in Goldman now on, we're doing a lot to try and push forward. It's just to encourage the inclusive, transparent leadership as well. I think the more our leaders can humanise themselves tell her own human storeys than a human storey like mine. It's about gender or human storey of somebody else. Going through something becomes easier to share is to talk about Nisa to support. Yeah, I think the more we can do to humanise our leadership will encourage the workplace to feel like they can start that step of being themselves because quite often there's not first step that because you can be so hard when the sun sense that everyone needs to wear a mask,

spk_1:   19:40
it work. It's a really interesting phrases, and we talk a lot about authentic leadership from what you've just described is Humanising leadership can just talk to us a bit more. About what? What that means.

spk_0:   19:50
I just find it very powerful when another feeling I get when I talk but also have heard other inspiring leaders talk when they can share something of themselves right that, you know, especially our senior leaders who are in positions of great success that done very well in their career to be able to hear that they may have been through a difficult divorce. So they may be in being through a difficult mental health journey a few years back. Or they're experimenting with something like agenda, whatever it might be. Suddenly the barriers between almost junior employee on your most senior employees are gone because we're all human and we're all equal on DH. That's what true equality comes into play. It doesn't matter about your skin colour, your gender on your sexuality. We're all human on human journey. We're all dealing with living within our feelings. I'm real experiencing emotions in our own way, and you know, we don't want workplaces to become an emotional overload overnight, but being able to talk about yourself in the true sense and whole sense break barriers on just promote communication. And when people can be honest and open about themselves, I truly feel they'll get access to the same energy that I can draw

spk_1:   21:02
from. Is interesting is that you just used the phrase emotional overload. And actually, one of the things which people have talked about in relation to my whole self is. What about the bits of people self that we don't want in the workplace? Whether that's inappropriate ways of expressing concern or anger, I know you've been very successful in your career. What's it mean to be able to manage that professional boundary? Amber, you're so

spk_0:   21:25
I think I think the word professionalism is the key word there. When you're in the workplace, there's a certain amount of professionalism. Is common sense that you should hear, too. But where I come from is just breaking down some of the barriers that if you're a senior leader or regardless actually that you're somehow immutable, you're somehow Impenetrable. You somehow have to be the rock. It's actually quite powerful to show some vulnerability. That's that's where I'm coming from you and, you know, showing some vulnerability showing that you're human, you're in the right amount, breaks down those barriers and improve communication. Improved leadership on distantly stray into those negative sides of emotional expression that, of course, we don't want in the workplace.

spk_1:   22:10
You talked a bit about the pronouns project on DH. You pronouns are really important to talk to speak about the pronouns, but also a bit about your own use of pronounce, Of course.

spk_0:   22:24
And this is one thing I do like to talk about and explain. How do you find it's easy to understand when there's a bit of practicality around? Why on for me? So you know, I'm in a situation where I have feelings. I have a longing for a female life that I manage on DH Live a Life is the intersection between my emotional longings in my practical life on DH. So I also like my gender presentation. What that means is that typically us, my colleagues at work to use the pronouns that reflect how in presenting. So it's he him. Here's if I'm presenting male she her her hers. If I'm presenting female, when it becomes more complicated, is you're having a phone call with me from New York. Or if you're trying to me an email on DH, The reason my pronouns are important to me is that the feelings that I live within can be complex. And if I'm presenting female on DH, someone on the phone is calling me sir and using male pronouns. They're doing nothing wrong. They don't know. But the reality is it can make me feel bad about myself on deacon Trigger feelings that can be difficult. Teo manage. And therefore I ask that to make things easy used a. Then there's as my friends, a pointed out. Sometimes it's not grammatically correct, right? But that doesn't matter. I'm asking you to do that, to make my feelings easier. And my view on life is anything that makes things easier for people and being nice to people we should do. I want to explain that Russian Alan why, you know, perhaps electronic communication means that gender neutral proto finance can be important. Something clicks and people, it's like, Okay, that makes sense. I understand why

spk_1:   24:08
I read somewhere recently that they they're on DH. Them may well be grammatically correct. It was used as a single, and obviously I'm not brilliant enough English to really and sense of history. But there were people saying it is grammatically correct. But much more importantly, the point that you're making is it makes you feel comfortable on DH. Yeah has exactly same conversation with somebody recently who wasn't getting as it does it. Take any effort from you to try and think about making somebody else feel more comfortable. And that's often than the moment where people will try hard, isn't it? To engage emotionally, you are

spk_0:   24:45
related to someone else's feelings and that by making a small change, you can make them feel better. Then it kind of makes sense.

spk_1:   24:53
Yeah, and that you're in The spirit of my whole self is actually all about creating the workplace culture, where people feel included, feel validated, feel respected and exactly what we're aiming to do. Have you had any personal experience off people underestimating the value and importance of getting pronouns right? It's an

spk_0:   25:15
educational journey, I think, because it's most people. It might be the first time they've had Tio even come across the notion of pronouns why it's important, you know, when I I politely just correct people at work if they used in the wrong pronouns or, you know, say things like, you know, Hello, sir, or whatever it might be, I just explain why, and it's just it. I can see the sort of light will sort of understanding and just a slow change in understanding. So I don't have any real personal experience off in the work place. I've got friends in the trans community who you know we'll share with me that, you know, when they are deliberately Miss gendered or deliberately used them on pronounce. That could be quite painful for people going back to. You know, trans gender is a spectrum when people suffer from gender dysphoria, which could be like I said, super overpowering, especially in the early stages. It takes a great deal of courage to actually step out to the world and try and express yourself in the way. And the simplest things can not that, And so for someone early in their journey, who might be trying to express themselves to see if how they can live within their feelings. Then it might be miss gender. That might be all it takes to and put a question to the whole journey I think that's very important to realise that it can be very important

spk_1:   26:33
people on def you, Teo. It's a really important link. I think back you started by saying that you suppressed feelings when you were much younger. And you've also talked to us about your journey, about the experience, off the feelings and living within those feelings. If you go back to the eight year olds or to the older teen on DH. Just talked a bit about gender identity, mental health. What? What would you want to say to them now?

spk_0:   27:05
Bit of advice. I would give myself no first office that feelings are not right or wrong. They just exist. They can change over time and how you feel. Any point in your life may change, but there's very little you can do to change the way you feel right. So I spent a long time growing up when these feelings were here thinking they were wrong. But the reality is there is no right and wrong with the way you feel. You can choose what you do with them, and that's what you have to make some decisions around. What does that mean for you? What does it mean for the people? But stop beating myself up? Andi, I think. Also be kind to yourself. You know, I think self care, um, looking yourself in the mirror and telling yourself I'm enough right at this present moment, regardless of where you are, is very important on it's an important part of any emotional journey, any emotional journey. We'll have highs and lows until you arrive at a point of equilibrium, and especially in the lows. It's important to be kind. Use kind to yourself. Love yourself on DH. Yeah, don't beat yourself up.

spk_1:   28:14
And, of course, that's the time when it is the hardest. Tio do that and really drawing on your resources and there will be some people. I'm sure you're listening to this, her thinking. That's exactly the moment that I can't do that. Is there anything from your experience about what you do have to dig deep that you can reflect on offers wisdom?

spk_0:   28:36
Well, I think festival. Don't be scared of getting support, you know. I still reflect that. Getting psychotherapy, getting help still feels like a bit of a stigma in the UK versus speaks my friends in the US It's like what? You don't have a therapist. It's like, very different. So no therapy is. It's a difficult journey, and I wouldn't say it. Z z You open up your Pandora's box and you you start to address things that make you the way you are. But don't be scared of getting help. It's all kinds of help. You know, I have been privileged enough to get different types, whether it's, you know, traditional, different flavours, psychotherapy, but also transactional help for those moments when you are going through the lows in that cycle, you know there are techniques. You can use it sometimes fascinating, to understand that the brain is a predictable thing. So even though your emotions are less scientific, understanding how the brain works and how it responds to fear and how it behaves in sensitive situations can be transformational, navigating those periods because you can realise what it's doing, and I find that very helpful as well. There's been transformation not just in dealing with the lows of this emotional journey, but also understanding myself in the business context, understanding and I used to get terrible impostor syndrome, which a lot of leaders do get But I understand it now. I understand how to actually diffuse that, which is also very powerful.

spk_1:   30:01
Well, if you know how to I can't let that one go if you know how to diffuse imposters injury. And given that so many people will sit with that powerful parrot on the shoulder, whatever it is, are there any ways that you could just

spk_0:   30:17
share share the one for me? Anyone resonate with everyone and suddenly sound funny. But when I was working through my imposter syndrome because I would also have days and with my gender journey, where you driving that day? We just think that your journey and your ability to navigate through it was in the doom and gloom. Places like, how can I do this? How can we get past this? What am I doing? What? What made these decisions? You know, And those Khun amount. Same with impostor syndrome. When you might come into the office and think I'm faking it. How am I gonna get past this? Why am I in a position of leadership for me? I visualise those feelings as this scary wall behind me. And in the scary world, zombies and eyes and teeth and hands on its chasing to catch me, right? I'm scared of you catching me But I did some imagery to my mind to turn and face the wall Once I turn and face the wall, it was never moving in the first place and be it's just full of like colours and party food and crayons and cakes was never the scary thing that I decided on. That imagery of turning to face the wall for me is a way of me just defusing. Those thoughts sometimes come and it works for me.

spk_1:   31:32
Powerful, isn't it? That bit of year when we facing and lean to the things that scare us that they can certainly not be?

spk_0:   31:39
Yeah, I'm more often than not the fears you creating your own mind always bigger than the real fears around you.

spk_1:   31:46
Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of going back, speaking to your younger self, you be kind your enough as you are right now on Teo. Look after yourself. So they're looking at yourself would be advised to give to young person. How do you bring that into your life right now? What's yourself here now?

spk_0:   32:04
Well, I think I continue with therapy. I think it's a great thing to do. I think it's a lifelong goal to understand yourself. So these days it's sort of digging, you know, in other places just to see how I can improve myself, um, improve my relationship with the people. Um, but also just taking time for yourself. You know, I will. I've got three amazing and Children. I invest a lot. My time with them on DH like me. Great joy. It's a way of me investing in myself to spend time with them. Um, I will take breaks at the weekend. I have a place down on the South Coast and I'll go down there sometimes just to our men are breathing. The fresh air has bought a puppy. So that's another aspect of looking after myself, although how stressful it's gonna be, I don't know yet. So looking forward to that, um, I don't think, you know, acknowledging that time for yourself, investing in your head space if I had space Another one. I do try and use headspace techniques, you know, mental techniques to actually meditate. The taps. You know that someone described it to me. Wants is a very good analogy Off day to day you're in the traffic jam on. Your thoughts are racing and you got all these things you want, You know, high flying career, a lot of things to navigate. Just sometimes during the day, you have to raise yourself above the traffic and just look down on. Then just be easier because, you know, in the traffic, people are honking. You just looking at the traffic on just 5 10 minutes of that a day also helped you detach and just chill.

spk_1:   33:41
Thank you, Doctor. Coming up several times on this s is the podcast. So just have you got a name for the dog?

spk_0:   33:49
We decided. It s so I went down my kids. It's a little little sausage dog puppy on. There's been a bucket list thing for me for a long time. On DH, we had a name pit, which to my kids liked one of my kids. Didn't when we arrived. My youngest has said he looks a little bit like sonic the hedgehog. So he's now sonic the sausage dog. And so we have a name.

spk_1:   34:13
Excellent. Good on dso you talking about your Children? If you were to imagine the world that you would love them. Tow, operate in when it comes to well being personal identities, mental health. What? What would that utopia looked like?

spk_0:   34:31
I think Utopia race is just Yeah, first something for them not to be concerned about. I think I only see in the millennial generation and below just a different level of acceptance about who you wanna be. So whoever my kids want to be and whatever form that takes, they've got me 100% behind them as they do that moment and others in their life. I think that's what I would like just to be be themselves.

spk_1:   34:59
What a great way to end on the optimistic hope on DH. Certainly my experience as well that the generations after us are better than we are at this stuff. And so if we can cheerlead on, learn from them, then we're heading the right direction. Represent our men. Thank you very much. That thanks. So that was not on one absolute pleasure. Tio have the opportunity to have that conversation. So thank you to net and also to Goldman Sachs for giving me their time to speak the thing that I'm taking away from this episode is how feelings are not right or wrong. Feelings just are on that. We have a choice about how we embrace them, how we work with them, how we understand them on DH. How we do that will impact on ourselves. And I work and really, really important just that sense of feeling, sister. And it's how we embrace them that matters. So yeah, really inspiring Storey that supports are really understanding around the campaign. In my whole self campaign, remember to cheque out the campaign on our website details in the description. Please do rate and review wherever you get your podcasts and make sure to join in the conversation with the hashtag J C podcast. For now, I've been Simon Blake. Thanks for coping with us.