Off the top of your head podcast

Ep 3: Dr Ranj Singh

• MHFA England

Share episode

NHS doctor, TV presenter, and star of Strictly Come Dancing Dr Ranj Singh joined Simon for a catch-up in this week's Just About Coping. As well as still being a practicing clinician, you'll know Ranj from ITV's This Morning, where he is the resident health expert, and for his new best-selling book Save Money, Lose Weight.

Ranj had a huge amount to say on the subject of mental health, both from his professional and personal experience. Simon and Ranj chatted about the importance of prevention and teaching young people about mental health, the way forward for a mentally healthier society, and how Ranj coped with the highs, lows, and intensity of competing on Strictly Come Dancing.

We'd love to know what you think so far! If you could take a moment to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts we would very much appreciate your feedback. You can do this on most platforms including:

Don't forget to get involved on social media using #JACPodcast!

More on Ranj:
Save Money, Lose Weight: amazon.co.uk/Save-Money-Lose-Weight-Waistline/
This Morning: itv.com/thismorning/health

More on Simon: twitter.com/Simonablake
Simon Blake OBE is the Chief Executive of Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) England. His mission is to improve the mental health of the nation and help build an inclusive and  society where attitudes and behaviours around mental health are normalised. Simon received an OBE in 2011, is Deputy Chair at Stonewall, and enjoys running, equestrian eventing, and walks with his dog.

More on #JACPodcast:
MHFA England: mhfaengland.org
Email: media@mhfaengland.org

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm dr Raj Singh. I'm an and it just stopped and TV presenter and I'm just about coping

Speaker 2:

in what you are and what you can cope with is in many ways not determined by you. Most of the time it is down to how you know, what you were born with, how you were brought up and what you were taught in terms of how to have it. I'm Simon Blake and this is just about coping. This is our third episode and my guest today is none other than TVs. Dr Randy Singh, dr ranch is an NHS doctor, a TV presenter, and now Sunday times best selling author of safe money, lose weight. You might of course, recognized ranch from this morning or of course from his time on strictly come dancing as a practicing clinician, a wise man with enormous emotional intelligence. It won't surprise you to know that dr ranch had an enormous amount to say about mental health. I enjoyed our conversation enormously and I hope you do too.

Speaker 3:

[inaudible]

Speaker 2:

okay, so thank you ranch for uh, joining us for this podcast. Great to have a guest, NHS doctor, TV presenter, renowned for having a massive smile on your face at all times. Uh, and here to talk about wellbeing and mental health and just be really interested really to start off, you know, mental health, wellbeing as a doctor, as a TV presenter, as a well known person, as a person who likes to be happy, what does it mean to you?

Speaker 1:

What does it mean to me? Well, um, obviously I've got a professional interest in mental wellbeing. Um, I look after children, young people and secondarily their families in the NHS. And mental health plays a huge part in what we do. Um, and actually increasing the, I think just as a society we're all much more interested in mental health than we used to be, which is a good thing. Um, and also put, personally, I've had my own challenges. I've had my own struggles my family and friends have. So you cannot get away from it. It is something that you are going to have to think about at the very least. And I like to think that I'm very privileged and lucky doing the jobs that I do. If I can somehow use those to further the conversation or even make things better for people, then I should at least do that.

Speaker 2:

And clearly you are already doing that.[inaudible] seeing you, uh, you know, making videos, talking about mental health and as you say, um, we can't get away from it. We don't want to get away from what we want the conversation to change. Um, and then your experience, how easy do you think that change is going to be? Uh, we're, we're in a place now where people are starting to talk about it, but how far away are we from really being a society that is going to grasp it, understand it and be mentally literate?

Speaker 1:

Oh, I

Speaker 2:

don't know is the answer to that. Um, obviously things have moved very, a very long way. Very quickly. I think relatively speaking, traditionally when the only time people would talk about mental health issues was when they hit a crisis point. So you'd either be fine or not fine. And that was it. And now we've recognized and I think part of it is because we are much more communicative as a society and social media plays a huge part in that. Um, but also because I think our lives are generally harder, more difficult in many ways for many people. Um, I think people have found that actually there's a lot more in between that happens. And mental health is something that is a part of your life. It's just like your physical health is something that you need to look after. Um, the tricky thing is I think at the moment is we're trying to work out how to do that. Um, lots of people are trying various different things, uh, what's available to people who are in trouble and are struggling changes. And some, and sadly in many cases is getting less and less. Um, and that means that the rest of us, the other side of it where we prevent people getting to that point, we have to work a bit harder. Um, quite how we do that. I'm not sure. Obviously we do, uh, myself included, have done a lot around raising mental health awareness. That was the first step really. And that was talking about it on public platforms. That's really important. That's great. We've done a huge amount of that. The problem is now that we're really seriously facing is what do we do now that we've identified there's an issue like what do we do for the people who are speaking up because they can't get the help that they need. Um, a recent report I think, uh, not too long ago, looked at, um, children and young people's mental health and their ability to access the treatment they need. And there was something like in the UK every year about 110,000 children, young people who can't get the treatment they need. And that could either because it doesn't exist or they don't meet the treatment threshold or for whatever other reason, they can't get it. Funding being a big issue. Um, that's the change we're facing now. And I think my personal stance, uh, from the work that I've done in the public eye around awareness has actually shifted. My stance is now very much towards, right. What can we actually do? What can we give people as tools to either, um, improve or build or maintain their mental health? What can we do for people who are in trouble in terms of getting them the support and help that they need? That's what we need to focus on. Yeah. Um, and I think, yeah. Uh, the, the, the lack of resources is clearly a big issue and the NHS longterm plan hopefully will address some of that and there will never be enough money. I think that's what we, well, we can conclude on. Yeah. You and I both worked in sexual health at points or the same arguments around sexual health services. That doesn't mean to say there's not a any more or any less acute, but if we think about, um, our wellbeing and, and you've just written a book about food and about wellbeing. Yeah, yeah. Last year or the year before on strictly with the highs and lows of that. How, how do you think, yeah, we can approach our own wellbeing. What is the relationship between ourselves, what we, what we do, our hobbies, our experiences and how, how, how, what's your take on that?

Speaker 1:

Um, it's so the key to mental health is not the same for everybody. There is no one size fits or it is unique to you and it is um, down to you to kind of work out what does and doesn't work for you. Um, lots of things will have an impact on any individual person's mental health there. Um, the biophysical social was, we call it say it could be their genetic biological makeup and what they're born with. Um, their physical health, um, their immediate environment, their employment, their social circles, uh, what's going on socio politically around them. All these things will impact on your mental health. And first of all it's important to to I suppose appreciate the a lot of what happens, a lot of how you feel isn't necessarily your fault. You know what you are and what you can cope with is in many ways not just determined by you. Most of the time it is down to how, you know, what you were born with, how you were brought up and what you were taught in terms of how to cope. Um, so much of how we feel is the product of what's going on around us. Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean we can't do something about it. So I, um, recently heard, uh, this jam jar analogy, someone described it as it was only yesterday in a meeting. There's that if you think of yourself as a jam jar, the size of the jar as your ability to cope, that's your resilience, if you want to call it that. Um, that is your capacity to deal with your pressures. The amount of jam that's in the jar, all the issues that you're having. Now, they said that you may not be able to change the amount of jam that's in there, but you can potentially change the size of the jar. I think that's only part of the part of the solution. Actually. You can change the jam that's going in there. You can change the pressures that are on you to an extent. You can change the environment and its impact on you, but you can also improve your own resilience as well. Um, there is a big movement, particularly in the NHS right now to improve doctors resilience let's say. And uh, it's become sadly, I think a bit of a buzzword because doctors I think are generally quite resilient, will ready. And if doctors are breaking down, it's because the system needs to change, not necessarily doctors need to get better at coping. And the same applies to so many people in other industries. A lot of people are inherently resilient. They are good at it. They may not be amazing. No one is, no one's perfect, but that doesn't, shouldn't be used as an excuse to not change the systems around us to not change the world around us. And, and the way the toxic influences that we have for want of a better word, the negative influences that we have around us, we should be able to at least try and make the environment around us a bit better as well. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And, and certainly, you know, there was no point having a wellbeing program at work. If the funds,

Speaker 1:

the mentors are the job isn't doable or the stresses are no t often I think these programs are introduced as plasters as a tick box. Potentially we're doing something or actually, Oh we can't change the bigger thing. So Texas do things simple and small and say we've done something that's just not going to work. It's going to be a waste of time and money. What you have to do is have a whole systems approach and think about it. And that's what we need to start doing as a society actually. Because you know, people talk about a mental health crisis, um, you could call it that. Actually. I think it's probably always been there. It's just we're just recognizing it a bit more and more and sure pressures are changing. Um, and if we're going to deal with it, then we need to look at several aspects of it, not just one thing.

Speaker 2:

Um, a hundred percent agree. And I think that we always, yeah, the jam jar analogy, we have a stress container and that G, you know, and, and, and that sort of bit about the, the release tap, you know, what is it that, that you may not always be able to, uh, deal with everything which is in that, but there will be some things which you might be able to do and you know, uh, and some of those things that you might do maybe good for you as some of them may, may be damaging. Yeah. We use a lot of alcohol to self-medicate often. But if you were to think about your own journey, what have been the things which you have done in order to be able to manage stresses? Difficult times. Yeah. Yeah. The ups and downs of life. Either sort of practical tips or advice that you've had.

Speaker 1:

Um, gosh, that's a tricky one. Different at different stages of my life. Obviously I've had different challenges and actually different ways of coping with it. So when I was very young, I remember being quite anx, not angsty as a teenager, but going through a tough time as a teenager, um, and having some very, very negative thoughts and I didn't have anybody to talk to at that time. I almost had to be my own counselor in a way. Um, and that's I think, quite sad and I'm hoping that that situation has changed for young people today. Um, and then hopefully not for all. Sadly not for everyone. That's the thing. I'm, you know, we're working towards a place I hope where every young person in need gets support. Um, I know it's a big through through adenoids, you know, we, we, I've had, I've got very stressful job, uh, within the NHS. Um, I've had issues with or difficulties around relationships and sexuality, which has posed challenges. Um, and I suppose the way I've coped with it is firstly accepting that it's happening, being owning it, owning that it's yours. Um, then talking to people around me, uh, be the friends, family or professionals. I've been very lucky to have people around me that have been hugely supportive, um, and accepting help. Um, the biggest challenge I think if anyone's going through anything difficult is to speak up and say I'm failing because that's what it feels like. Weird. Especially as doc doctors were trained not to say or think that, um, because how could you possibly, you're there to be helping everybody else. How could you possibly be the one in need? Um, yeah, acknowledge it, be honest, be open, speak to somebody. And I found personally counseling really, really helpful. So I've had a couple of counselors through various stages of my life and they've just helped me work through things. Um, and I think everybody should have a counselor personally. It's just, um, it's an emotional vent. It's an emotional pop off valve where you can just go somewhere and for 30, 45 minutes, just let off that steam that's been building up and it's so therapeutic, sadly not available to everybody and it's not the cheapest thing in the world. I acknowledge that. Um, but for me it was really, really useful. And then I found more recently adapting certain parts of my life. Learning to say no was a big thing. Um, we're brought up, I think we live in a culture where if somebody asks you to do something, you've got to take it on. Particularly in my job. Cause otherwise it seemed that you can't. Yeah. So learning to be selected saying either no or not yet. Those are the, that's the big lesson I learned at work. Um, learning that you can't just do everything. You have to prioritize things and you have to, there's only so much capacity you have and you have to save some of that for yourself. So you have to look after yourself. And, um, I found that, so being a doctor, we always talk about, um, exercise. Go and do some exercise. Great. Exercise is boring as hell. I hate going to the gym. I hate running. But I found through straight the a form of exercise that I absolutely adore and I fell in love with dancing and it's something that I've carried on and I've never felt better for it. Um, that's become my, one of my ways of coping with the stresses and strains of everyday life. I want to come back to the dancing, but I'm also don't want to too far away from

Speaker 2:

the word you use, which was um, to accept that you're failing. It feels like a really interesting word. And actually when there's so much stigma around wellbeing and around mental health cause it's seen as failure that the, the very thing that it isn't is, is failing isn't it? So, um, just be keen. Tell to me a bit more about say, accepting your failing cause in a positive, some of the best things I've ever decisions I've ever made and when I know knew that I was never going to be successful at something, right? It's time to do something else. But talk to me a bit more about accepting you're failing.

Speaker 1:

If you were to develop cancer tomorrow, you wouldn't beat yourself up and say it was my biological failure there. And this in the same vein, if you develop a mental health difficulty, we be ourselves up actually, but we shouldn't. It's a similar principle. You know, what, if something doesn't work, it's okay. If you're not perfect at something, it's okay. If something, some part of your life lets you down, it's okay. It's all very much part of a human experience. I think life is not like the movies. Love is not like the movies. And I sadly think that often we feel like it is. It should be. And at work, relationships, love, you know, all of that kind of stuff. We feel like we should be the most successful, most happy, most affectionate, having sex 24 hours a day type people. It just, that's not real life. Um, and accepting that the idea that you have of what you should be actually maybe wrong and that doesn't mean you founded it, but it's always accepting that it's okay to, if you do.

Speaker 2:

So that, and I think that's that bit, isn't it? That actually, you know, particularly as, as, uh, boys, you learn very quickly that you supposed to be, you know, being a real man is, and not being gay, not being a girl, not asking for how not crying. And actually if we're going to really sort this out, then the thing we have to do is reward and recognize that asking for help is a good thing. It's, it's really, yeah,

Speaker 1:

it's a big positive step and it's something that I've had to learn. Um, even professionally, one of the things I, I see this in myself, I struggled to ask for help and I have to tell myself, no, this is the right thing to do because that's what you're supposed to do. And the same should apply in the rest of our lives. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It is not always easy, is it the, the, the should often also become the enemy of the, of the might and, and occurred and, and obviously you talked earlier about some challenges around relationships and sexuality and some of that was also bound up with what other people thought that, uh, should be, uh, expected of you. So I guess I'd just be

Speaker 1:

interested to, you know, that moment where you think actually what other people want for me, isn't what I want for my self and that the courage that was required. Um, it took me 30 years to realize that, or a truly an appreciate that what other people thought was best for me wasn't actually best for me. I was the person that could decide that because they weren't living my life 24, seven, they weren't experiencing what I was going through doing what I was doing. Um, and I tend to be, I'm the type of person, I'm a people pleaser, so it's all about everybody else. And it's only when I turned the focus in on myself, I thought, hang on a second, hang on a minute. But your not happy and you're the most important person here. And that's not a selfish thing. You are the most important person in your life. But obviously there are, that's not the be all and end all of your life. Um, and it's realizing that what people think of you or think is best for you isn't necessarily the case, isn't necessarily what you should be worrying about. And it was only when I made that realization that I thought, I'm going to actively try to do me. And that's when I became the happiest I have ever been. And I think it was liberating in a way, scary as hell because you caught it like, Oh, don't know what the hell is I want, how do I gauge myself? How do I validate myself? Cause we all validate ourselves on the opinions of others. Um, but it's actually the best thing in the world. Like be your own best self. Who cares what anybody else thinks. Yup. And talking with people pleasing[inaudible] would be a remiss not to go back to the dancing. Yeah. So when you work, when you are asked, when you're asked to go on a strictly, um, what was, what went through your mind? Ah, screened, loved it. Um, I have been a massive fan of the show for years and years and years. And for a long time whenever people would ask me, Oh, what's the ultimate show that you'd want to do? I'd say strictly because it was a pipe dream cause I thought that's never gonna happen. Um, and then it did just kind of a bit weird and a bit sort of bamboozling in a way. But I just threw myself in and thought I am going to make the most out of every single minute of this. Um, and it was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Physically. I was broken mentally. I was close to breaking because it's such a stressful experience. You put everything into it. Um, but I at the, at the same time, I was weirdly in love with it. It was really[inaudible]. And then when it finishes, you do have a sort of a, a slump right after is because you've gone from being on high alert and running at a hundred miles an hour to all of a sudden being at zero. And you have to be really, really careful and look after yourself the entire time. I developed anxiety during my strictly experience and that Jeanette, my partner really helped me through that. Yeah. And then afterwards, with the slump that happens, you know, it was her and various other people in my life. They kind of picked me up and said, right, come on back. Can you fate, I know you've like, you know, you've just fallen off this cliff now. It's time to get back up and start, you know, start walking again. I don't think anyone can prepare you for stay strictly as a very specific process. It's a very specific kind of show and no one can prepare you for how all engulfing it is. It takes over every part of your life for the time that you're there. It's the biggest show in television. So there's a little bit of a horror around it. I'm a little bit[inaudible]. Um, at the end of the day it's a contest. So you are[inaudible], you are in competition, not just with yourself. You're in competition with other contestants. Your, your competing to win the favor of the nation, of the judges of your partner. You don't know, let your partner down. Um, so there's a huge amount of emotional turmoil that goes into it. As much as you might love it. It is, it is a melting pot of emotion. Um, and then, so physically you're training for six, seven, eight, nine, 10 hours a day and you're doing that four or five days a week as somebody who did a bit of physical activity going to, that was a massive leap for me and my body took a while to adjust. I was in agony a lot, but you get used to it. Um, the, the, you develop a really close bond with your partner. Your partner becomes not just your dance coach and your teacher, but your mentor, your confidant. Um, you share this very strange bond that you wouldn't normally have with somebody you've just met. And I'm not surprised. Things like the so-called strictly curse happened because you're thrown into this very, very weird situation where your physically and emotionally very close to someone that you believe. Um, fortunately in my instance, um, I got a really, really close friend out of it. Um, and we were still regularly in touch. You know, we catch up quite frequently. Um, I only saw her last week. It's great actually, at least for a few days ago. Um, and then at the end of every week, there's this huge elephant in the room that you're going to have to perform something which you barely know and you're not really feeling comfortable with this. So at your comfort zone in front of millions and millions and millions of people and be judged for it, and you do that on a week by week basis, it is intense. It's really intense. And if you don't know how to look after yourself, if you don't have some form of coping mechanism, um, then you are really gonna struggle. And I think different people struggle to different extents. Um, it's, yeah, it taught me a lot. It taught me a hell of a lot, not just physically it's got me into dancing and, and develop my love of that. But mentally it's taught me how to cope with a lot of stuff. I, you know, I talk a lot about how to cope with anxiety with my patients. I never really have to do it myself until strictly happened cause then I was going through exactly what they were experiencing. Um, and part of me learning how to deal with it was my partner. She knew exactly what to say when, which is really, it's really helpful to have somebody there that can do that. But not everybody does. And I think, you know, you will have seen there's been a number of reality TV shows where they're um, questionable whether doing enough support, the wellbeing and mental health of, of the contestants. And I guess just listening to you, it feels like, you know, we all know know what these uh, uh, live TV shows, uh, require. And there certainly feels like a responsibility for them to, to help people through those processes both at choice, during and after. I agree. I absolutely agree with that. I think that we have to accept that these shows do have impacts on people. And actually the difference between strictly is that it's the contestants are people who are used to being in the public eye and in the media, whereas on certain other shows they may not have had any experience of that. So that adds an entirely different level of complexity. But we are now in a time at a time where I think we're beginning to appreciate that TV isn't just TV, it's not just entertainment. It has a bigger impact on people than we may appreciate. And therefore we have to put in place mechanisms and strategies to, to support people when they need it. And people are coming around to that which is good, which is really, really good. I hope to see it develop more and more though. And, and if you also just, you talked earlier about social media and just be interested from the conversations you're having with children, young people and their parents, uh, where, where you are and now, you know, put my cards on the table here. I think that we, um, overplay sometimes the, the, the impact of social media, but I don't want to underestimate the impact of it at the same time, but we've just be keen, you know, what if you had, yeah. When is it good for wellbeing and what, what do we need to watch out for? Um, I think we have to be really careful that uh, um, media screen time as you call it often gets demonized very quickly. Um, and actually the scientific evidence behind that isn't great. It's that there is some something to say that if you're spending a lot of time sitting in front of the screen, you're not out and about being active, you're not engaging socially with other people face to face. There is something to be said about that, but I don't think the headlines in the negative press, it gets actually benefits what it actually does and we mustn't forget that actually social media can be a huge source of support for people. Connectivity with other people, connection with others is hugely protective mentally as well. And some people are isolated, some people don't have the opportunity to get out and about or they can't relate to the people immediately around them. And for them, social media is actually a lifeline. We mustn't forget that there are huge amounts of organizations doing really positive things on platforms like social media. And we've worked with some of them and we've seen the impact it can have in a good way, but it's a double edged sword. Like people used to demonize TV and they still demonized TV. They say, Oh, you can't watch too much TV, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, your eyes will go square and all sorts and you'll go blind. I remember people saying[inaudible],

Speaker 2:

that's masturbating, not watching TV. Just listen Simon. Um, but, but

Speaker 1:

gets the social media, gets the same rep. actually there are good points and bad points and uh, what we have to do is teach people how to use it appropriately. So teach people how to use screen time and social media appropriately. Um, how to, you know, when to put it down when it's a good thing, when you need to step away, when you need to actually go and do other things with your life. And the, my gauge is if it's affecting other parts of your life, then you're probably doing it too much. And that applies for anything. Masturbation included.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So just for clarity, masturbation does not make you go blind. No, cause we can't reinforce that man after 21 years of working in sexual health. Uh, so talking of, of balance. Yeah. I guess one of the things which we have a real responsibility for is to, to learn, um, and to help children, young people to learn. And I know that, you know, the, the health and wellbeing of children and people is a particular passion and interest of yours. If you were to sort of look forward 15, 20, maybe 30 years, if we can go that far, I don't think I'd be alive then. Simon[inaudible] I hope, I hope you will. Uh, what, what would you hope we'd have learned? What do you hope society will look like for, for children and young people?

Speaker 1:

Um, what I'd really like to see is a bit more of a shift towards, and I'm not just talking medically, I'm talking more, um, socio economically, socially to preventative strategies. So shifting the focus from being reactive to being proactive. Um, early intervention being the classic example. So a lot of people to early intervention basically means putting systems and structures in place and services from an early age so that problems don't develop later. We know that 50% of mental health issues developed by the age of 14 and let's say that's a statistic that gets thrown around quite low. Um, and yet most of the services that deal with mental health problems and issues actually target much older age groups and later on in life and they consequently are going to be more reactive and it's harder to deal with stuff and manage it at that stage. Once you've hit that crisis point or that breaking point. And what we need to do is use this mentality of spending a penny to save a pound. Yeah. That's what we need to be doing early intervention. Um, there are, there is a move towards doing a bit more of that. But the difficulty is, and this is a bit more of a political argument actually, is that it doesn't give you immediate results. So you can't say to your voters or, or your finances or commissioners, look, we've done this and it's done this. There we go. There's the proof. So let's do more of it. It doesn't work like that. These are things that actually are much, much more longer term. Um, and with governments changing every few years or possibly even sooner than that, um, uh, it's much harder to justify and show something like that. I'd like to see us investing and actually seriously investing in the health and wellbeing of young people because I think later on, and it will take 60, 70, whatever years to find out, but later on, I think we're going to be in a much, much better place.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And[inaudible]. Yeah. It's so interesting, isn't it? How short term mist we become. If you look about 50 years ago, there were half a million, um, physical health and safety accidents in the workplace after 50 years of action. It's now at about 70,000. Yes. Um, the people in 1970 were probably not wanting results by 1971. Exactly. Yeah. But we have to have that longterm. You have to have that vision. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And it'd be nice to have a government that has that vision.[inaudible]

Speaker 2:

clearly you are not making any comments. I D just, we often talk about the things that cost money. Yeah. One of the things which, uh, again, we both, uh, share passion around equality and human rights and um, and clearly, um, you know, there are support mechanisms need

Speaker 1:

to be in place, but just really interested to get your sense, you know, you've talked before about homophobia. I hope you've taught about racism. Uh, you know, what, what can we do without any money to, to ensure that, you know, people feel welcome, they feel included, they feel as though they are good enough. Yeah. Teach people to be kind. That's what it is. It's simple, basic human kindness. Um, kindness for me is one of my mantra is actually always be kind. And it doesn't necessarily be mean just being nice to people or being lovey. Dovie it's not that at all. It is a mindset. It's a kind set, Oh, let's turn what should use. Um, kindness is a mindset. It basically means accepting people. And just trying to understand them for who they are, not just tolerating, I don't like the word tolerance because I think it's a bit shortsighted and I think, I think it's limited. It's about understanding and accepting people around you that they may be different and maybe even celebrating with them how, giving them a helping hand when they need it and vice versa. Um, it's about championing the rights of those who are less fortunate, less privileged than you. It's about being an ally as opposed to just saying you're an ally. Um, it's about being aware that others don't share the same privileges you, um, and it, all of that can be, that doesn't need lesson plans, that doesn't need money, that just needs an attitude change and attitude changes don't cost anything. Um, putting them into places tricky. Uh, there's a big debate about where, where do you start? You start in the home, just start at school, just start at work, just online. Um, and maybe we all just need to start everywhere really. Um, I'd like to think that people try to teach children to be kind from a young age. Um, and then those lessons, they will just carry with them for the rest of their lives and even amplify them and teach others and then they'll get a snowball effect. That's what I'd like to see. Um, but I think no matter when it comes to equality and acceptance and inclusivity and all of those lovely words that we use, the core essence of it is kindness. And of course he talked about teaching children about kindness. The, um, my experience of course has often been as children who can teach us yes about kindness. Children aren't born prejudice. They, this is something that they learn. And I hear that time and time again. It's so true. Children don't discriminate by the within reason. Biologically. Actually we do discriminate to some extent, not on the base. We discriminate against difference because we're fearful of it. We're programmed to be fearful of anything different because it's a survival mechanism. But we're more than that now. I think we'd like to think we've grown past our primal instincts and we're a bit more, um, and children are actually very open to being, to changing their mind to, to, to overcoming their primal instincts and, and, and being all accepting. And it's us adults that bugger that up

Speaker 2:

on the note of kind set adults needing to shift their mindset a little bit. Mark, can I ask you one last, uh, last question before we finish? Uh, what's your favorite song to dance to?

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh. Ah, um, do you know what currently it is? Fireball. Fireball is the, uh, song that Janette and I did at South city and it's the gift that keeps on giving. I don't stay on the strictly tour. I don't stay on the strictly cruises. I don't stay on my 40th birthday. It is, it is my, um, it encompasses everything that uh, that whole experience meant to me. Um, yeah, it was,

Speaker 3:

that's got to be fine. Thanks very much.

Speaker 2:

So I really enjoyed my conversation with dr ranch. I hope you did too. We got so carried away with the conversation that we were having. Having briefly mentioned saved money, lose weight, we didn't actually revisit it. So do go online. Randy's new book out now. Save money, lose weight. If you enjoy just about coping, please do. Make sure you leave us a rating. Do subscribe. I've got some more wonderful guests and do get involved on social media using the hashtag Jac podcast. Until next time, I'm Simon Blake and thanks for coping with us.

Speaker 3:

[inaudible].