Just About Coping

Ep 13: Karl Robinson

April 15, 2020 MHFA England Season 2 Episode 13
Just About Coping
Ep 13: Karl Robinson
Show Notes Transcript

This series we're looking look at a new campaign by MHFA England; My Whole Self. To create mentally healthy workplaces, people need to feel safe to be their ‘whole self’ at work. So how can we create workforces, wherever that may be, where everyone has the freedom to do this? To find out, Simon has gathered leaders from across the worlds of business, sport, and more...

Our special guest this week is Manager of Oxford United F.C. Karl Robinson. In 2010, Karl became the youngest manager in the Football League aged just 29. After ten years in the business and a growing reputation for developing talented young footballers, Karl has a vision for football to drive and support the mental health agenda across the country. In their fascinating conversation Simon and Karl discussed: 

  • The pioneering approach Karl and Oxford United have taken to mental health and wellbeing including mental health first aid
  • A message Karl received from a fan which he will remember for the rest of his life
  • Why being his authentic self rather than 'playing the role' of a manager has made Karl better at this job
  • The key difference between 'banter' and abuse, and how Karl manages his own mental health

And much more. We really hope you enjoy this episode. Karl's passion to make a difference is clear to see and we wish him and the club all the best for their promotion push should the season get finished.

As always, we'd love to know what you think. If you could take a moment to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts we would very much appreciate your feedback. You can do this on most platforms including:

Don't forget to get involved on social media using #JACPodcast and check out all the My Whole Self fun on our website.

More on Karl and Oxford United: telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/09/25/exclusive-karl-robinson-interview-toppling-man-utd-oxfords-ambition/
'Oxford United’s unique psychotherapy project with Gary Bloom is winning hearts and minds':  oxfordmail.co.uk/sport/18098433
Sky Sports - 'How Oxford United took a lead on mental health': skysports.com/football/news/11675/11960047

More on Simon: twitter.com/Simonablake
Simon Blake OBE is the Chief Executive of Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) England. His mission is to improve the mental health of the nation and help build an inclusive and  society where attitudes and behaviours around mental health are normalised. Simon received an OBE in 2011, is Deputy Chair at Stonewall, and enjoys running, equestrian eventing, and walks with his dog.

More on #JACPodcast:
MHFA England: mhfaengland.org
Email: media@mhfaengland.org

More on #MyWholeSelf: mhfaengland.org/my-whole-self/

spk_0:   0:04
Hello, I'm Simon Blake, and this is just about coping. My guest this week is Carl Robinson, manager of Oxford United Football Club at the time of recording Oxford United Our League one Club, which is the third flight of men's English football. Now, I don't know that much about football, but I was blown away by Carl's openness and his passion for change within the sport. Amongst other things, we talked about the way his club are leading the way on player wellbeing, breaking down the stigma of mental health in male dominated environments. Curls Journeys, a manager on Lend to bring his whole self to work. We also talked about difficult issues currently within the game, such as racism and homophobia. It was a really enjoyable conversation, but a reminder that this was recorded back in early February on next week's episode will be recorded remotely. So here you are. My conversation with Kor So Carl Welcome, Teo Mental First Aid, England, and thanks very much for joining us today. Can we just start by telling us a bit about yourself? We're obviously here talking about my herself. If you were to just describe yourself, Teo, somebody in the street. What would you say about you?

spk_1:   1:19
Um happy family orientated. Probably desperate to win. I thought, you know, I've never really looked at myself like way. I just I just try and me pass now. Just one. Be happy. I want to smile the one, but we family to be OK. I don't wanna win games of football. Ah, it's a shallow maybe, but it's ah, it's just the way I'm

spk_0:   1:49
nothing shallow about wanting to win. So you talked a bit there about work a bit about home If you were to think of yourself. Are there different versions of you at home and at work?

spk_1:   2:00
One on the machine? Sam? Yeah. I struggled a lot with really early on with but trying to be the macho man leading 30 men into battle doing into football. And I'm going home and trying to be that soft father and a loving husband I want to be in. I struggled quite when I first started doing it. And you know where was up? Because you can't just switch from one emotion to deal there by getting in. You can't get it out of your car. So yeah, I am completely different. I think all the time it's women that I've tried to work on to try and be a little bit more of me more often than the boss or the manager. I think that's sort of the age, age and experience and difficult moments you have in your life. You sure to realise, is it really worth this being an act rather than just try and become yourself and sense of sort of child one of two things, and I failed in some of the aspects of it, But I think I've become better at my job being the person that I am at home a little bit more and work. So I'm at the beginning that I was completely different on DH. But now that the longer get definitional, the older you get, Ah, shaft that I get really that the more time trying to be a little bit more panel over there, too. Worlds that are living

spk_0:   3:22
is interesting. Use the term softer and often if you look at education, people use hard skills and soft skills, and the you know the business focus and attention to mental health may be may be considered the soft stuff. And clearly you've got a winning formula here. And actually what you've got is Oxford United leading the way in terms of player wellbeing. You've got a psychotherapist that has been in your business yet in your workplace, and it's it's having results. So you tell us a bit about what motivated back.

spk_1:   3:54
Yeah, there's a gentleman that came into my life In 2000. Fortin called Simon Edwards. I just threw a doctor who worked the hardest. Rita, Listen, Karl, I think is a psychologist. You are Have a chat with him. I met him. Ah, He became one of the biggest influence on my life. A very difficult time. I'm he sadly passed away about three years ago. I made a massive void filled in my life personally shoot past. I went to see Teo to be a better me or better vision of me on Gary came along and just short, I knew that we all get transfixed on trying to win. And we're all trying to be these this somebody that fans wanting to be your people we used to be, but that could be one of the fastest tracks to getting you lost and who you actually are on DH. Once he brought him any didn't half each bought a few people privately. It's not about winning much my job. It's about my players understanding that they have to be themselves. And will it be a relationship issue, whether it be Ah ah, parental problem, whether it be billed as the human, that can actually be a the stress elements of it can be Soto really suppressed by not beyond to talk to somebody. So I just thought it right to bring somebody in, and I'm a massive advocate of trying to promote mental health on blues, the statement of what it actually is. But at the same time, where does resilience come in? Where's the ability to win? Come in on? It's that in the sporting world or in any business world, it's where that fine line really does get drawn. But I do think kids get things far too easy Nowadays. I do think school and education gives things out very easy. If just by being there on, there's no drive to become successful to a small elements of the same sound out, the other side of the arguments is, well, we've gotta have more care and attention for these people to make the better vacation themselves and garbage being a big influence on an awful lot of things. And you wouldn't say I'm an effect on the results by things. I mean, the fact of the people I made them. If you're happy in your job, be performed better.

spk_0:   6:09
So having invited psychotherapists into the club, clearly what you have said is we're going to take responsibility for you. We're gonna look after you. And perhaps one of the reasons that people don't do it is because it's easier to ignore it. Do you feel that sense of responsibility?

spk_1:   6:28
I feel it's happening in life. If you turn your back on it, it's easier to deal with, Um, not just mental health. Ah, so yeah, I do feel it is it is a fear in getting involved in this because people are frightened to bring up something and somebody else that could trigger something. That thing could spiral in a crazy way out of control. But I think the one thing I have to be confident on, but doing this was that you bring in the right person in the world that We're like a psychotherapist convention in a week and won the psychologist Dr Carl Steppes over here. But he was very, very good. And he was He was talking about the show Me. It's so fragmented at the moment. Psychology and psychotherapy in on DH counselling and support mechanisms that you've got to come together. I think if you have the right person in the you safe without environments But every day now I'm more controversy. I see more things. I'm is a fear. But I draw the cope with that. No one that people are safe. Andi, if if somebody was to do something out of control, safe, if they want to tackle and training or they do shorten No, what were they were normally do like, for instance, having arguments or treats from craziest area on a football pitch. But actually, when you step back now, look, I look at this now, a normal go. That was out of all. You should not on issue, Shouldn't it on that. But now I go. Okay, relax. Let's go back. And that's our make sure Speaks of personal everything. Okay, because that's out of contact for you on your good aspect of it that if you've got a footballer who is in a difficult place, he would be a difficult place with or without the psychotherapist person being there. So if something happens while we're trying to deal with it. So there's two aspects of how now this has really changed on our thought process, what I dreamed my players difference. But on the train and picture to do some completely out of character. I've heard this is gone, and in our world, that was, if you guys want that was the That was the thought process. Now, without Gary on board, I'll head and still getting set and I go. Just be careful. Just be careful. Let me let me deal with Gary, Shaw said. Listeners, different things that you can use different words that you can use our family. Okay, Yeah, everything. Is this OK? And then I used on It's amazing how people and go Not really governor. This happened. Yeah, and over should go right. I'm going to have a chat with Carrie. Listen, it's brilliant. Always great guy to have a conversation with you and just seeing if he can help you out away from football, and that's the way be short. We do it. But equal knows he's there. But on the other side of it, the fear of having somebody in to create a problem, it's no, it's solving a problem because if somebody is in a difficult moment in their life, like, say, it doesn't matter who's there. But it does, because you can have some sort of him from time. So and every day now we have you do have the fear elements of I think that my my mind's more open to show me different things that goes on in people's lives because I talk about it more and more open about it.

spk_0:   10:11
And so what was people's response when you first said that you were going to bring Gary into into the set up into winning? His

spk_1:   10:20
Nick name is Gary, the north of which was quite shallow at the time that that was the sort of the pushback. You'll get enough shit and players and but we pay severe today. It how do you see them? Because obviously, even with the image of saying that, but only sort of a sign posting all the time, it's that sign posted elements of How can you say I emotionally to somebody if they feel I'm confident being sign posted into that room or into that part of the building because of the scene walking down there is the perception that that person's got from it wrong or not in a good place, is he then worried if the manager season goes down, there is not a good place from to be picked on the Saturday So we had to show me different conversations and show me different debates on how we deal with it. I think the big thing is what the place that you understand that if they're going to see somebody, I'm not gonna judge you that that's the last thing that I long to do. And that's the body that we had to break down, that they're not going to be judged by going to see somebody, that it's OK to see somebody. It's okay to talk on there. Yeah, I think a few people have used it really well. Sean Place still don't want to do it. They feel a little bit put off by it, but I'm sure over time will break down the barriers of anybody. Slowly,

spk_0:   11:38
absolutely on. I guess it's got to get to that point, hasn't it? We're in the same way. You'd see your physiotherapist, that you would talk and see somebody talk about your performance and your wellbeing. Yeah, those those things at

spk_1:   11:51
this infuriates me. My player will pull a hamstring. A noble gaffer from a hamstring. It's stiff. It's sore. I called your physio. OK, Brilliant. I've never the player come to me to gather. I don't feel right today. I feel a bit low and now I've turned over 500 games of being. Industries is 16 and 14 now. Nearly. I'm I've never had that conversation. Now we all know what the starts that we get the stage. That would be the reason why I play. I didn't want to train or didn't want to play, but it's cool to be harvesting. ItT's not cool, but it's accepted. But we have to make it accepted. For somebody to say I'm struggling. I'm having a bad day. I need to see somebody on these things that we've gotta break down these barriers and we've got to make sure that people have an ability to be themselves regard Lee, your religion, anything, whatever it may be and become less judgmental over people. And I think we have a very judgmental industry that we need to break down these barriers. And these these things are being built up over time.

spk_0:   13:02
And arguably, football is an area where it's not just mental health, is it? You've got your recent experience on racism. You've got home phobia. You know, it's there clearly, you know, recent times out, player. So is mental health part of that wider cultural and they talk about men's game? Actually, I think it's important to not fall into the trap of talking about women, their men's football in the same breath. But is it all part of that bigger point, which is, actually we've got to enable people to be ableto thrive on and off the pitch.

spk_1:   13:38
For all of the things you said, it doesn't matter what you are. It doesn't. It really doesn't. I think I've never seen any of the above seem within a football club ever. Yet. I can guarantee you there's a gay football right now that is not speaking up to what it has to be. We know that so thes people don't feel comfortable about. We won't see you who they are or what they want to be and that shot on that. And that's why the more the more we talk about, show me different elements of our world that we can compress it into football because it is a very good driver. Andi. Different racial issues that we have. I think we're never going to stamp it out, unfortunately, because you know you have the absolute clown that has no understanding of that person's wellbeing. But we can. We can break down by regime. We can. We can move further on with these situations to make people feel more comfortable. But it's crazy. So we play the game and was 30 plus 1000 there. After 10 minutes, a song breaks out you just a fart. James Cordon, which my daughter 10 rounds human thought and thankfully, she's been around my industry for long enough. She seen the funny side of that. But if I was in a difficult place or a difficult moment, which I have been in my career, that could be instrument that could have felt really insecure about. You have 30,000 people she gets here. But that's always going to be part of the football chant in the football short way. I just I just truly want people to have a better understanding of people's mindset of where they are or the backstory. The key

spk_0:   15:32
thing in all of this is there is a difference. Isn't there between kind banter and abuse on DH? One of the things around camaraderie yet is one thing, but actually then directed anger. Prejudice, however it manifests itself has an impact on people. So it'll be interesting, given that we know that footballers, managers and other people involved in football show my expertise in a

spk_1:   16:02
way, we've gone so far with you about your knowledge of football. But I think I think it's one than ones where I think when, for instance, and this is why I say to all my players that so what is banter? Banter is is a way of converse. Um, it's somebody that trust you where you can say whatever you want because you know they're back Storey. You know where they're at in their life. You know you feel comfortable with them on almost the points of regardless of your off anything. If you are as a person, anything could be said because you know the buttons, the cannon car. You push yourself to the limit, but whatever mean you say in here and we walk out there just in this corridor, whatever was funny in here because of the trust might be damning on somebody's wellbeing mindset on all the shouldn't could actually enlightened something in there had the axes and negative thought process, which could be damn into who they are as a person. So it's just understand that I have an ability to understand of where you're at and what you were doing at that particular time with your humour on my show, Me things said in dressing rooms and accessible, I don't see any racism within within ah, football dressing room. It's no, I've never heard it. I've never seen it, but we know it exists in in the outside world with an R in the street because we have a very close knit 30 guys who changed together do everything together. So they know, which is that they know the families. They know the parents, they know their kids. So there's no segregation, regardless of where you're from, so I don't put the band's aspect of it, eh? Every day we're life over different things. But I think sometimes we think we laugh about it internally within a football club will be deemed as a negative thing externally, but but we only share because we trust each other.

spk_0:   18:02
But that's the key bit isn't that there's the trust, and I guess what? It is difficult to have a relationship of trust with 30,000 people on DH that whole bit about. You know, we've always seen people as athletes, haven't we? Yeah, and rather there's people on DH. Social media enables that dehumanisation slightly mohr And then you know that if people are from particular backgrounds or have particular identities are often dehumanised even more. I mean, in your contact with fans and others, do you get the sense that they recognise that there are real people with real lives? And, you know, as you said, rial really experiences and really good days and bad days?

spk_1:   18:46
No, no, we're number. My door's has read thing want with my wife, read things on Twitter that's been sent to them. That is just horrendous. Horrendous. Um, all because I lost a game of football. It doesn't. It just doesn't make sense. It truly doesn't. I'm not on Twitter on Facebook. No, along any social media. Um, it's one of trying to train myself. I don't generally read much media. I really listen to podcasts on people that I'm interested in. I have experiences and an ability to speak and people that respect. Um, so don't listen to music. Just take myself. My car is my sanctuary on the only people who told me in the car, people trust I'm not only music that I like, so that's my way of getting away from it. But I don't think people truly I have an understanding and flexible, even just recently, with the storeys that we're hearing about how the press and the public can prejudge somebody without even known him. It's quite sickening and quite damning that, But within 2020 I'm having issues with people being critical of a plum ones personality. I don't truly think that it wasn't reading. My Twitter was set up. It wasn't a reason why. Instead, on my set up, it wasn't set up for the reasons why probably 80% of people use it. We'll say it's a bit hard with 50% people that use it. Um on It's now become a platform for negativity, but equally on top of that, I have to be honest. And I see people on it who just want a self promote with all the I've seen some of the week with the young woman with the bikini looking phenomenal. And it's somewhere now that Khun B make people feel completely insecure about their own body in their own well being, it it should. It should be from in the Kinect, families connect Friends shows what's what they're doing, not how many clicks the or thank you for more 1,000,000 follower because of promoting something. It's not something that I have one in my world. It should be for business use. It would be for most of positive things. Onda should be a battle handle on it. I think by the people, the powers that be within their organisations. And if you could probably pull up, I would you know what it was we of comedy before somebody sent me some things that people wrote about, wrote about me on the way. You're getting beat. I've kept on the phone. For what reason? Because not too long ago, them saying people in town, people out on the best man on the scene. So two shows it where that it's coming from. I'm I keep it on the phone because every now and then they have a little look at it. I just smile. Just know that on the same person that was then. So what I am today up a bit of weight on football. I'm gently the same person on DH. These are a lot of things. They're just little things I have used. And this is what Simon help me with. And when I had a difficult time how to call with with some of these moments and the's times in your life, but give you triggers. Teo make you a better pair star to cope with the negativity.

spk_0:   22:15
And so you talked at the beginning of this podcast about that. There's a a separation between home and work on what you've just described, of course, is that actually you're one person. You may have some bits of you at work, but that sense off how people may think, you know there were a person or a different person. You may go into work. You may not, but actually, what you've just described is one cull. It happens to be in different places or different spaces that different. Yeah,

spk_1:   22:47
well, I think I like this first time we've met today, and I know a lot about you already could offer. You do bring a lot of you in into work, and I think it's interesting. Even the campaign that mid March is that I think that read about the launch or bring yourself to where campaign as well. And it's a really interesting concept because I don't think people do. I think they're being very small fragments of it that the only brings people who bring to wear what they think people in work want to see about, the more I hear about them rather actually common and actually being yourself. Andi letting people know that certain has gone bad in your days. It's good in your morning. Something's going about your your pet, something about your family, about your child, about your partner. That's a really interesting way of looking at it, because I don't think a lot of people do. I do think it's it's It's a way of actually a vice on your personality. It sort of stopped and it clamped here on this. So muchmore either side of it that people are actually or should be more interested in you. But actually it frightened to let open this vice up, allow so much more in because it's almost like, um, playing poker. You keep the cards so close to your chest, but you don't want anybody else to see it because you feel strong and powerful in your hand when you're sat there with them cards. Once you put them on the table. Everybody knows what you've got as a very similar for but in the reverse that in the way a place that's good. The people know the good the bad off of you because allowed because the build of a better backstory Teo, understand how t deal with you in a bad, bad day or a good day, and I think it would be quite an interest in when it does run live on when it does get out. I think it will. It won't make a big difference to people,

spk_0:   24:36
and I think the most important bit for me, and this is that clearly we all put clothes on to goto work. There are rules of engagement with work. There's a relationship of trust between employer and employee E. And there are some things that you want to share and some things you don't. So this isn't Put everything out on the table. Behave how how you want. But there is something isn't there about for some people, they feel as though it is not okay. So if gain if you go back to football, as you said, there will be a gay footballer somewhere who doesn't feel able to be themselves. They will be in self preservation mode, whether that's about what they talk about, where they've been, that has to impact on performance, right?

spk_1:   25:18
But the bosses of the companies that have a better than the sound of people that were there as well because we'll go back to performance if I have a gay footballer. This is frightened to come out and tell me who he is as a person that will starve talent. It will. It will suppress it. It will it will drag the air away on. We're paid to win. So actually, by that person being allowed to be themselves within our team environment makes us a better team. Like any business within the banking world, If people feel comfortable with who they are, how they dress and how they goingto work, you'll get about a bit of a better performing patient. So it actually has ah effect on business as well, which everyone gets judged all different things that didn't work. Actually, I know what I'll be. I get sometimes quite a bodice by the person. That was when I first started managing. I was the almost 29 years of age told that never, ever do it that age. And I don't back a complete embarrassment to the person that awash in 2010 to the one I know ever put yourself out like 2010 the decade If I broke down that person to this person today, it's a completely different manager. Um, I'm weirdly I feel better than myself. So just this proof in that the I felt being a manager, I was standing six foot all the time finger point, and then you'd addition. You do that and you get any end, never backing down to anybody in and going home. Tired, fatigued, upset, sad head and tryingto, then the wife saying, We do not for us, not you. It is may leave me alone. Well, happy. We've been together for 17 years nearly, and she obviously always the person before the management, the passengers going to and you start to do things. You start acting like a manager. If I went to AA meeting, the first meeting went, too 29. The next You, my parents were like for everybody else was like 50. Push 45 50 plus You'll come soon. Don't think moments like the back of the room. And there's a big managers like big, big managers and people look up to as one called Mick McCarthy. I know it was like, really respected and very out spoken, and what you class years ago with what people called all we have is the one we will follow. It is a great manage well, a great man. So I'm just not that I'm thinking it was voted something right, but the fair's ones should be dead from a against one of them on the senior management, not a wrong. Why did a person short stroking my head now? Thinking right. I'm gonna copy then, too. So put hand off. You think we should have this rule next season? Rule 13 point Whatever. Yeah, on Depot for the end of that, because I was frightened to be May I thought that was right to follow the people that are respected. I did after a few years, and then all of a sudden it hit me that I wasn't being true to who I am. I'm not until Dr but I under truly understand that I lost somebody that I lost my way and they realised I couldn't keep it in somebody that I'm not. You

spk_0:   28:54
just talk briefly about some of your own experiences and a bit about struggling. Hey, willing to share.

spk_1:   29:04
But yeah, there's that. There's a time where a girlfriend of mine I was actually about to sign. I just got off the new job. Just being promoted. I mean, your wife going off on Ah, we should write with it. The car. We're getting the train. Unless you go, we've got 3.5 weeks. We'll go wherever we want to go, and then I got a phone call from a woman in Middle East to say that we want your service knicksseason, whatever the cost, we would have to pay. And I found the guy could and the King use The best part of my life was unbelievable. Daddy's. But except for my family, just so up front with me and a personal call to me and say, You're wrong there today, you routes that person can apologise. So I wasn't you wear and he's just a just a real good mental. I was speaking to my comments to this club and we were singing songs and, um, he was 60 and other short fuse. And if I send the amount and the wife Seema B a k i n g dot com baking a typical no b a k and he's won the stubborn people. He lost it with me on the farm and it's

spk_0:   30:17
bacon. Write it

spk_1:   30:19
down and laugh and joke. And he said he was seeing this song, and they're still talking to monitor the coins model. And then we were driving from towards Leon on the role going down on me. If I was on the phone to a friend of mine and he rang me wants and twice and three times or four times and then his best mate, or fell out with, in a weird Way, even me three times. What? Supportive. Too strange. Then even the king goes again. And strange thiss guy called my car. For those like alleging, the football team emailed May What's going on on the phone? It was a family just passed away, so that's impossible. He's just weak, like you know what his wife, she wants you to know. I just got more moments, and I just had the stress of a whole season and I was trying to keep everything king over the course of season. There's one moment where I just get this news that didn't expect that. I remember getting to Leon on Evan for a room. It's just the best way for me to deal with things just going for a run. I don't need people to understand. Actually, staying fit can have such a positive effect on your mind set, and we'll go after when you can walk on just gonna mean like, botanical type of guards and my wife were just Children, she looked the melons I don't want to do. When we got the car, we drove Teo. I went to Lake Homo and fine when across the garden and inter vanishing I fell for the first time in life and vanish if there's no roads. So I felt trapped as in stolen hotel and on the top floor. And I felt weird. I felt that just looked out at the munitions ship. I can't be bothered. I don't know what the point is. I don't know what I don't know. She went downstairs to the room. I just felt trapped, broke down, just gone. And it wasn't about maybe him Passing was the final straw. But I think what? I don't overplay the time I wanted to look strong in this in this promotion that show no weakness, no sign of weakness and which have one thought. It was extremely strong, shallow, narrow minded. Whatever you wanna call it. But I want to win so badly. I think this is a spiralling effect, Forman. Simon And he calmed me down and it wasn't for them. I don't know where Waterworld on each spoke to me and got back home. Went to bed went about three weeks later, come after the funeral and in bed, and I was really a premonition of swimming outside the house. So I got on the phone to the Alamein, which the league managersassociation should listen. I need to see someone. I need to see somebody quick. I was in London by a 30 in the morning, booked him on somebody, and I was so lucky that I was in in the studio, had that availability and this is the bit I want to change because I was a little He want that. I could see So in the next day and I sat down, I went through all of the things that have gone through and you don't need any medication. It's just a case of your mindset right now. We've got to make sure that we put you in about anxiety. It's this. It's that. So I'm gonna start, go through through from coping mechanisms, and I'm just picture and having a positive mindset in the brain. It didn't have changes me as a passion. Andi. People always looked at me, and when I was six for two years in football is he's always smiling is always like Easy going is in the populous mates. He's out with his wife. He's playing with storeys, doing all sorts of things people didn't know that was just wasn't the passion I want. There's a book called I Am Living on a Volcano, Ah Road by Michael Calvin Michael Calvin News Sports and It's a Sportswriter, one the best He wrote the rugby player, the Welsh Rugby Players Book as well as biography. I was a phenomenal read about when he was going to take his own life and it took him to the cliff edge in, he said. He got so close. Often it's just a phenomenal writer on a living, a volcano 50 and managers, and it speaks about our experiences a Jack McCall modelling glue chauffeured with some mental health issues for a long period of time. On, it talks about like, sort of. We live on this volcano. That's just it is literally We are just waiting to erupt, and I told the Storey about we got beat on the satellite, but the water was five. I was in a mood, like also a restaurant after getting beat on all people are looking where you live because of all the games. I don't look it on smile. Look, my wife just eat. She would think it was here for many days on end, but went between the next day and the doors have said something to me. I just loved to death. I just can't where's can put in tow how much he means to me. And he did something stupid and their stupid chief brilliance. And she's incredibly stupid by that. And she loves She likes playing the clown. And she started laughing so much, this person says, Oh, £20. That cost me yesterday And you think it's funny getting beat. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I didn't mean to laugh. Massari. I told the Storey in this book I didn't have a bigger effect on me that moment than what I actually thought that particular time now. I wasn't allowed to be happy with my doors on a Sunday. I was headed for getting beat. I'm a terrible loser. I'll always will be, because what I do. But I don't wanna be a terrible dad. Yep. I don't want to miss that moment at the door. so that she's laughing. And maybe that might have had a big effect. Possibly have a bigger effect on what actually thought that particular time.

spk_0:   35:47
Powerful, isn't it? It's those moments that you that you experience that.

spk_1:   35:52
Yeah, well, I sometimes speak of it on my experiment is a very, very small vertical friend of mine, Daddy Shipyard, You who's come out this week and spoke about obviously Caroline Flack and different scenarios that he's dealt with and gone through. And I was I was coming down here today and very high profile name in the world of Sport was out of town a lot of common and on what we're doing and retain all item terrible issues to begin to my career and but didn't want to go to. So I just went out, and that was people's way of dealing with things like drinking. Um, that's that type. And it was in everybody's way of dealing with things you don't want people to find that I wasn't being shallow and a lot people within my industry. If you look it was, it was a thing to do is to go on, have a drink because we're all better self medicated. Yeah, and it's not.

spk_0:   36:44
And I guess this type of conversation on the source of conversations that I I suspect you have in your club and in your networks is actually how this change is that it's not going to change overnight. So you're thinking about your openness and my experience of your openness, what sort of impact you think on your network?

spk_1:   37:05
Massively, don't. But I'll tell you, we'll just go back a little bit. What was what you just said Just resonated. Joe. How shallow people really are. Sometimes I had somebody works. A psychologist. Weirdly, you said that. Where are we doing this? For our own egos? Our in Freudian. That's funny. I'm sure your job is to help people. When I said, Well, no, we're just doing this because we want people to be to understand that it's okay to be themselves, and I also hear our that mental health stuff. It's an excuse. Well, for the people who uses an excuse, they would have found another excuse anyway. But you know, if it helps one person every 100,000 people, it's worthwhile. But it like, say, 55 a half 1,000,000 people United Kingdom. One in four people in 2020 will have sham short of mental health, setback or difficult moments. I'm on top of that. It's maintain your life on the age of 40 is one of the biggest killers. Is that not serious enough to talk about? Is that an excuse? I hopeful publicly within them, starts 60 million people going What football in our country, over core player or players assume there Saturday. I go to games, short affairs of our population that we could hit. That means. But the four million people were gonna watch football. We're going to have a difficult moment this year. No, it beggars belief that people don't. I don't understand the importance of this

spk_0:   38:52
on that one in four, of course, doesn't even include the people. Be bereaved, divorce separate. You'll having all sorts of other things as well. The numbers are actually, but I guess it's really you know, I think what you've just said is so key is you. Is that not a reason, you know, And you you if that's the excuse. But that's because the facts are stark on DH. Yeah, we need people to be having this type of conversation, wherever is whatever industry. If you were to take the opportunity that football gives with those 16 million people on DH, it was grass with both hands by fans by managers by players by the powers within the industry. What would happen if you were to lead the way in shifting stigma, promoting positive mental health? A positive

spk_1:   39:44
mental health is one of the best sources off medical support out there. It truly is on. But those people that do need medical services to support their own health yet so this is we're not. We're not going away from talking about. All this is all we got to talk about now because it's so Marie. All that reasons why people need to live their life for the better. And I just because it's seen as a manly game and this is this is his. This's tribal wave off a century of people dads, dads, dads, dads, dads gonna game and it used to be people go the game We were Monday to Friday. We go the pub on a Saturday morning. We go the game. We go on and talk about a work on the family honour showing Indian battle where kinda Monday football's changed. It truly has changed and I think has changed for the better. Obviously, the problem we have now with social media there's more people that can get involved in it. But the show me different types of people now that going shit in a stadium and you want that you wanted to be a safe haven for people to go and enjoy spectacle, that they want a warm watch. I do think that Chairman's and IT managers of ah, key role 90 orders. That's all there is. There's not many say within a very small minority of on people, but we have a new audience and I don't want anybody to use. This is a way of getting further in life. It's not about that. It's not about what money people confirm initial, and from that, even though people do need to end when you get that as well. But I just want football to be a driver. I wanted to go and be the pinnacle off the sporting world off how we can deal with that. I want to show me where the meeting with your wonderful staff two weeks ago I met Prince William Usher and straight from here, Tio meeting in the afternoon like 25 30 minutes. You're speaking about how we can change a generation, how we can affect how we can use poor to be a driver, because is it does have its appeal, the masses. So we have a greater voice but equally people beyond to speak out for their experiences and the lessons that down it should be called this week. I thought bags on that boat over 34 months. I thought I would just tell me or speak to me.

spk_0:   42:12
Your openness has clearly led to people seeing you as somebody that they can talk to. Are there any experiences examples that you would share off where you don't know where your voice is going and who might be hearing it?

spk_1:   42:28
Yeah, but it started with a real negative. I'm getting all criticism on social media and somebody really have not called me. Ah, nah, Show me. Put my number on social media phone number. Yeah. Have I been on missions? Was 18. If you don't like this man, contact them now at all. Wass, it's been left is not a problem to me, but it don't change the whole number because I have other forever. So I don't want to change it and put the consequence of that. We added that. So maybe that's why this person coming back I am. I spoke about before the game about how we need to think about people's welfare better. We need to have a greater understanding of who they are as a person. But if anybody's listening, his interview on the oven about time, things aren't great right now in your life. Don't be about us to go and speak to a doctor. All this Martin going just go on the Internet. We all of the access to do that. I just find the way on a local newspaper or whatever it may be. Just try and find. Show me you want to be, too. Teo released that valve to an extent because it I thought deeply about it. I was live about a day later. I got a text you don't know. I am away. Tio got you know, because of this, this and this. I said I'm in a difficult place. I wait the moments when I get back, I'm going to my doctor Monday morning. This was like Sunday night and most of bean after Saturday or next day. Um, okay, I said, you just do me a favour, okay? Attacks you in your doctors. I said hopefully. I'm glad that you listened to it and hopefully other. It can impact your life slightly and you can smile on DH attacks me next table. One o'clock. Subpoena doctors. There's a plan in place now and even former wife's off the moon. I'm sure because we're old enough to appreciate what happened on the last 48 hours, and it just don't realise like that's gonna affect on people. We're in illusion, common goals in my life. After 500 games, I think about 40% win record. So that means the 60 of assistance to the 60% of defeats or drawers. So the common goal in the past over 10 year periods and remember showmen did you don't remember? But I remember that sex the rest of my life that maybe I want to do this a little bit more. That's why I want to get involved more because be sure that I'll never forget. And that's that means more to me than winning games of football.

spk_0:   45:11
I'm just gonna start to move. We've been talking for at least 45 minutes already. Rich goes incredibly quickly. And you just talked there a bit about your brain brain going 100 miles now, maybe even faster on DH. Clearly our brains do you need to rest? Your part ofthe being able t cope is that you've always got that release. How do you look after yourself? Oh,

spk_1:   45:37
if that is the one question and we should all ask ourselves and my golf a look off. I love my family. I like training. I like being in social environments. Um, I like being two people who are no in my industry. Ah, nothing about also how you sleep like sleep is. It is one of the most important factors of our life. And we don't respect sleeping off as I too. There's only two natural forms of recovery which asleep and so on way sitting for the Manish one outside today. There, Lisa. But we don't respect sleep. I'm a few people. Sometimes when you're on is the issue I had I would stay up. It's a one o'clock in the morning till Really tired. So I knew I just fall asleep without thinking. But it's different. Coping mechanisms for that is why now when I go to bed, I tried to bed a bit earlier, and I read the news away from football. About the only the Barbies from being that just takes me away on that allows me to sleep. But not my thought process is taking me to a place that I don't want to take it to so on. And it's amazing when you wake up in the morning after a good night's sleep. It does help. So I try and make sure my days when I stay away for May I was just trying to be just again trying to be a better version of me, and that helps me be in relax. That that makes it that makes sense

spk_0:   47:11
doesn't make sense. A Gulf family sleep, and we talked earlier about definitely D i y Teo

spk_1:   47:18
just shot social life or

spk_0:   47:20
social music. What some of the music that contain your way

spk_1:   47:24
or Kenny Rogers, the gambler I

spk_0:   47:30
linked to that

spk_1:   47:30
I love you. I do. I'm addicted to music. I

spk_0:   47:35
have a feeling we could do a whole another way to say thank you very much for thank you so much and talking to smell it. And I think you don't underestimate the power off a football manager coming in and talking about mental health. And

spk_1:   47:50
that's why it means a lot. And I hope, hope like save one parent in this institution. There's light bulb moments in that one. Passion it with you. Do this every day of the week. If that. If that could be the case. So thank you

spk_0:   48:02
for your time. Thank you. So that was my conversation with car a little bit different this week, and I hope that you enjoyed it. I'm sure that you'll agree that Color's a brilliant storyteller, and it's really clear to me that he wants football to be driving the mental health agenda within sport. Carl and I were both on Sky sports news a few weeks ago, talking about the importance of maintaining our mental andare physical health during this period. If you want to see clips of that, links will be in the description. You can also find out more about the fantastic work that Carl and the team Oxford has been doing in the description, too. I hope that you are keeping well and supporting each other during this period, a reminder that if you're working from home, there are lots of resources available on our website for both. Looking after yourself on some guidance on how to support your colleagues remotely. If you're a mental health first aider. Please do continue to rate and review just about coping and share your thoughts using the hashtag J C podcast. We'll be back next week, but for now I'm Simon Blake and thank you for coping with us.